i sometimes think the standard christian view of things is this.. mankind, like the people in new orleans after hurricane katrina, are stranded waiting on aid and god flys over and sees them on the roof waving and holding up signs, but, he can't really do as much as he would like to.. he has some stopgap aid here and there for a few, but, mostly everybody just has to do the best they can to hang on.. like federal aid or the national guard---jesus is coming!
hang on!
jesus is coming!.
Terry,
Further to my previous post, I have provided scans of pages from that author on the origins of the NT, which I feel is relevant to your concerns, is available at:
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=ce1c272b0bb9756988771969da279955
Wait 20 seconds for the "Download" button to appear.
If they don't help, please accept my apologies.
Doug
in my research i have decided to go waaaay back.
so, one of the first things i did was look at the beginnings with regard to charles taze russell.. while this may be old news to many, this is indeed new to me.
and i want to tell this to the jws that are no doubt on here too.. you are an adventist sect.. without posting the expanded (very long) version of my research, i will post the basics that lead me to this conclusion.. how unique are jehovahs witnesses?
Aussie Oz,
Although Rutherford is named in CTR's will only as a possible substitute on the Editorial Committee, Rutherford took control of the organisation through physical force and dubious legal manipulation.
Whereas the original organisation was democratic, Rutherford was adamant, while in prison awaiting the outcome of the voting, that he would never be held subject to the whims of the voting membership. We well know how Rutherford turned over the democratic process into his "theocracy".
It might be of interest to pursue the fates of the people who actually were named in CTR's will. When CTR died, the organisation broke up into innumerable splinter groups. An OCR of CTR's will is available at: http://www.jwstudies.com/WILL_AND_TESTAMENT_OF_CHARLES_TAZE_RUSSELL.pdf
As far as the SDAs are concerned, they were held to be on the outer of the 19th century Advent groups because they were under the control of a self-proclaimed prophet, and officially they did not keep on setting dates.
Doug
i sometimes think the standard christian view of things is this.. mankind, like the people in new orleans after hurricane katrina, are stranded waiting on aid and god flys over and sees them on the roof waving and holding up signs, but, he can't really do as much as he would like to.. he has some stopgap aid here and there for a few, but, mostly everybody just has to do the best they can to hang on.. like federal aid or the national guard---jesus is coming!
hang on!
jesus is coming!.
Terry,
The following words are a compilation taken from several pages in a book on the construction of the NT. I hope you find this relevant. The book was written by a professed deeply committed Christian
Doug
---------------------------
The earliest Christians, all of whom were Jews seeking to interpret the power they had found in the life of Jesus, feverishly explored the sacred writings of their people, searching for a way not only to understand what the sources of his power were, but also, and more importantly, to make sense out of the fact that the one in whom they believed they had experienced the meaning of God had actually been executed on a cross.
As they processed this internal debate, they found consolation and affirmation in their sacred writings, so that these writings began to shape their memory of Jesus. They fitted his life into this emerging scriptural portrait. Far from Jesus fulfilling the expectations of the people of Israel for a messiah who was to come in some programmed way, they simply told the story of Jesus so that he fitted into this scriptural pattern.
Of course, Jesus could be seen magically to have fulfilled the scriptures if the early Christians began with those scriptures and forced their memory of Jesus to fit those expectations. It was particularly easy to do this since there were no eyewitnesses. The Jesus story could be created out of scriptural whole cloth.
The Jesus experience was real. However, the gospels' explanation of that experience, even the explanation of his death, was anything but remembered history.
A magical view of the gospels was developed which asserted that instead of the Hebrew stories shaping the Jesus story, the events of Jesus' life simply fulfilled biblical expectations and prophecies in some miraculous and preordained way. Jesus, however, did not live out the prophetic expectations. Indeed, this bizarre and false idea has served to hide from us the fact that the Jesus story was actually composed with the Hebrew scriptures open and the memory of Jesus was actually adapted to conform to biblical expectations. In the process both history and objectivity were compromised.
What was there about Jesus of Nazareth that caused his earliest followers to wrap the sacred history of their Jewish past around him and to expand the stories of their religious heroes until they were big enough to communicate what it was that they experienced in this Jesus?
does the bible supply us with any information, that might give us, at least, some idea when this frightening time period will begin?does it show us, in some way, just how frightening this time period will be, and just what is the main cause of it?
" [matthew 24:8 niv}.
what was it that actually marked the beginning of these birth pangs?
Zarco,
You're spot on - just imagine what it would be like if one-third of the population of Europe and England were being killed today, as happened during the plague.
And what about the barbaric methods that were used at that time, such as locking families in their houses when one member showed signs of illness and carting bodies through the streets.
Doug
okay so i've just found a scripture that totally condraticts what the jws preach and also a lot of equality laws.. proverbs 22:29 talks about if a man is skilled enough in his trade then he will no longer need to slave for the common people, he can serve kings.. so the bible is telling jws and christians to pursue their secular work and time so they need no longer "slave" for the working classes.
not only does this reinforce capitalism but it also goes against putting jehovah first and his workship.. i don't get it!!!.
i thought jws were supposed to treat everyone the same.
iMARX,
The author was writing to his/her own community, not to any other. It is difficult to translate from one language to another, but it is far far more difficult to translate from one culture to another. We need to ask questions such as:
When was that Proverb written?
What were the prevailing community standards at that time?
What were the political (secular and religious) conditions at the time?
Each Bible writer was addressing their own immediate community, reflecting their contemporary views and attitudes. All we may do is distill a principle that is applicable to our own contemporary conditions and ensure we do not try to transport every nuance or idiom from them into our own. In other words, we must read their words through their eyes, not through the eyes of a 21st century person.
Whereas virtually all OT prophets were of the priestly class, which were associated with the royal household when it existed, Jesus was from the country, where people were illiterate, and he spoke to them using their imagery and their values. Jesus' ministry was more like that of Jeremiah's, who also was not from the main city, and who too spoke harsh things against the ruling priests.
Doug
BTW. I have never been a JW.
in genesis, the two stories of "the flood" have been combined into one.. each story was created by separate groups for their own theological purpose, and with very different attitudes towards god.. i have provided a scan from a book that untangles these two accounts.
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=160b02654b38df6311d38f4932294874.
you need to wait for 20 seconds before the "download" button appears.. doug.
Blue Grass,
Since I try to survive on the Old Age Pension, I sympathise with your pain at the cost of buying the book. But I can assure you that it is great reading, almost like a detective story, as the author provides clues while he make a case for identifying the people responsible for writing the Scripture.
As I indicate in my post 901 above, I will soon start a thread dealing with the Jewishness of the Gospels. When I do present that thread, I will be referring to books that threaten, challenge and disturb, so I reckon your money will be safe in your pocket.
Doug
in genesis, the two stories of "the flood" have been combined into one.. each story was created by separate groups for their own theological purpose, and with very different attitudes towards god.. i have provided a scan from a book that untangles these two accounts.
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=160b02654b38df6311d38f4932294874.
you need to wait for 20 seconds before the "download" button appears.. doug.
cyberjesus,
Sorry, but I don't have a pdf of the book.
Do you know how to scan your own book as a pdf? I use Acrobat Writer to produce these scans.
Doug
in genesis, the two stories of "the flood" have been combined into one.. each story was created by separate groups for their own theological purpose, and with very different attitudes towards god.. i have provided a scan from a book that untangles these two accounts.
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=160b02654b38df6311d38f4932294874.
you need to wait for 20 seconds before the "download" button appears.. doug.
John Doe,
The Bible writers and the main players - including Jesus Christ - were Jews. Even the gentile Luke was a convert to Judaism. The whole of Scripture is Jewish and if we fail to read the Bible through Jewish eyes, we fail to understand Scripture. I will start another Thread in which I shall provide thoughts from a Christian writer.
The manner in which the Jews recorded their stories was typical of the methods employed at that time by their surrounding communities. But we cannot point fingers at them, since today's historians do pretty much the same, colouring not only the past but the present as well.
Doug
i do not know if this is of use to anyone, but i thought i would share it anyway.. i prepared a personal analysis of chapter 3 from the wts book, what does the bible really teach?, and i have made it available at:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/bible_teach__chapter_3.pdf .
in the first part, i made notes against scans of each page.. following those pages, i insert the words of each scripture being cited, and at times i include verses from the immediate context.
FuzzyPaul,
Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate your ideas. Any more?
Doug
in genesis, the two stories of "the flood" have been combined into one.. each story was created by separate groups for their own theological purpose, and with very different attitudes towards god.. i have provided a scan from a book that untangles these two accounts.
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=160b02654b38df6311d38f4932294874.
you need to wait for 20 seconds before the "download" button appears.. doug.
In Genesis, the two stories of "The Flood" have been combined into one.
Each story was created by separate groups for their own theological purpose, and with very different attitudes towards God.
I have provided a scan from a book that untangles these two accounts. It is available at:
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=160b02654b38df6311d38f4932294874
You need to wait for 20 seconds before the "Download" button appears.
Doug
